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Post by euforia on Jan 23, 2007 20:14:38 GMT -8
I don't wanna say it, (bah! who am I kidding of course I do!) but this person is, for lack of a better word, dumb. Here's proof: forums.station.sony.com/mxo/posts/list.m?topic_id=36300008231The opening post says it all. Now I'd go on and say a few things there, but I can't post. Don't worry I won't bore you here, I'll just say using Karate and understanding it's weaknessess and learning how to thwart them with stat points or other abilities is worth it later on. At level 25 my karate character ( Trayden ) was a power house and I didn't even need to lead any Kung-fu. The point of this thread is to point out how some can be lazy and purposely take the "easy was out". I dislike them.
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Post by 2fist on Jan 25, 2007 5:49:18 GMT -8
While using Karate I don't see any of the debuffs the Op is ranting about. I did find something really odd though, when I mouse over the karate buff under the tool bar the melee accuracy is much higher than the other two MA styles. And by much higher I mean 50% higher than one and 65% higher than the other. I do seem to hit NPC's more often with karate as well and it most definately kills them faster. Of course my RSI has been bugged since CR2 went live. Whenever I try to PVP I lose all my specials after a few rounds of interlock and enter a perma-powerless state. All I can do at that point is run or get pounded into the dirt. And yes, I've sent in several /bug reports.
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Post by euforia on Jan 28, 2007 16:40:54 GMT -8
Ah, damn that sucks.
As for a 50% increases, I'm not sure of that as I havn't had the other two trees loaded to compare, but if the accuracy is a bit higher and not just a bug it's probably because karate is, or at least was, armor piercing.
It just bothers me when people single out trees thinking they suck. It gives the impression that they're afraid of playing around with trees and see which ones they like. I used to play RPGs for over 20 hours or more, just trying to find the right way to build things up, I've since taken this idea into MMO's. Sure it sucks when you're level 30 and realise you don't like that play style, but you also know what doesn't work for you.
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Post by Catzi on Jan 28, 2007 22:36:52 GMT -8
yes, easy there, this is a good person who just seemed a little miffed by the numbers and is seeking clarification. This person also spent many hours with me when i first started to help me do a mission on my own. I too can be alittle awstruck when people claim certain tree's "suck" and i think it was more of a question then a statement. thats how I took it anyways. And I dont think theres any one tree thats ultimatley the best. If there was, everyone would have the same loadout! Just merely hinting at one of the spy trees to be unbeatable caused alot of people to go with that loadout. then the hype about DoubleGuns caused tons of people to dump their MA trees and switch to Duelest. And now Pylat's Hax loadout is being copyed by many and now i hear the age old "i was hacked" once again! hehehehehe, when are the ProxyMasters gona get thier due?! For one of the Monday Night Fight Clubs maybe we could have most of the aclaimed loadouts represented.
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Post by telemancer on Jan 29, 2007 11:05:26 GMT -8
I think it would great to have the loadout proponents fight at fight club, that would really help clarify who is right and who is full of hot air. I also assume someone will post pics and results after each monday night event? that way the public will ge tmore interested in the events IMHO. T
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fatmop
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Post by fatmop on Jan 29, 2007 13:03:22 GMT -8
Mathematically, according to the way defense and accuracy are tabulated, Guns > MA. Here's why.
1) On the Duelist tree, there comes (I believe) a 10% Melee Defense bonus, gratis. It's either there, or on the SMG tree, or both. MA trees do not grant any Ballistic Defense bonus whatsoever.
This means that when gunners activate hyper block, they have 10% more defense against MAs than MAs have against them. It doesn't matter that the Pistols tree claims to be "Sacrificing Accuracy for Defense;" they can hit MAs with almost every shot, every time because MAs can't do much to buff up their ballistic defense.
2) On the same Defense Bonus note, the optimal stats for Gunner (level 30 in uh, belief and perception or something) automatically grant a 50% Melee Defense bonus. Martial Artists gain no Ballistic Defense bonus from their optimal stats.
That means EVEN HIGHER defense for the gunners - so now, on top of the fact that they can hit an MA user just about whenever they want, it's extremely difficult for MA players to hit them at all!
--
The -best- strategy for an optimally statted (i.e., 30 in the MA bonus stats) martial artist is to put on all armored clothing to beef up resistance to something like 220 against bullets, then load up Kung Fu and hope the ability spam gets off an occasional hit. 90% of the time, that strategy still fails.
I used Aikido WITHOUT optimal stats toward the end of my time in MxO (temporarily, I swears), which meant that I deliberately put points into ballistic defense bonus. I had relatively low accuracy, but that didn't seem to stop me from getting off hits, since most people use clothing to power up their acc and not defense. Since my defense was quite high (when dueling gunners, I also put on ballistic defense pants and the Area K trench), I could occasionally hold my own - but the results were STILL 70% or higher loss statistics.
Simply put, with the current system of stats and abilities, gunners will destroy MAs. That's all there is to it.
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Post by Catzi on Jan 29, 2007 13:53:08 GMT -8
I think it would great to have the loadout proponents fight at fight club,. I also assume someone will post pics and results after each monday night event?. T Most Definatly! fatmop wrote: "Mathematically, according to the way defense and accuracy are tabulated ... ... Simply put, with the current system of stats and abilities, gunners will destroy MAs. That's all there is to it." *blank look* i'll go back to my clothes and meetings now
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Post by Admin on Jan 30, 2007 0:39:44 GMT -8
I've had good success against Gun types with my MA loadout. I'm an MA specialist though. Always have been. I think that makes a difference. While I have Sniper and Rifleman I'm really not very good with them at all.
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fatmop
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Post by fatmop on Jan 30, 2007 5:08:48 GMT -8
Sorry for dragging us off-topic, but under what circumstances? Sure, you can get kills easy in a PvP situation where you have other people causing states on your target and he may not be able to defend successfully against both bullets and fists... I meant more like duels. Since MA power lies mostly in state moves (without which it just takes forever to get kills, raising the probability of your death), and since it is practically impossible to hit with a normal attack against a gunner spamming duelist abs, guns > MA in duels.
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Post by Admin on Jan 30, 2007 12:45:23 GMT -8
Not off topic really. hehe Circumstances. Well... you know me Kell. Not likely to find me rolling around Mara C. I do PvP but not that often. Duels hommie. Duels. If I got CQ for duels I'd be in the thousands and thousands. lol. I talk a lot like I'm sharkbait when it comes to fighting but it's all a front. lol. My loadout is generally Aikido Grandmaster with a Kung-fu Secondary. I'm not too concerned about ballistic def. Normally my ballistic def is around 210, 220, in that area, all enhanced gear. I don't think I have any armoured even compiled. lol. Some aikido skills will boost that Ballistic Defense a lot for brief periods and a LOT of IS. I was dueling Static the other day and when one of us died the other had a sliver of health left. He was using duelist I think. Not sure. Guns.. Lots of guns.... lol. I'm also old school so that means I have things like the Zion Hardware Requisition which adds toughness and a lot of experience with the game engine. hehe. The biggest factor in winning or losing a duel against gunman is the random factor. Sometimes I get the roles. Sometimes I don't. Oh yeah.. I don't post ego boosting pics of me in pvp on DN1 either like some of those guys do. lol. So I fly completely below the radar. Hell... I learned from the people the Mara Rats (it's not an insult. Damn non-canadians. Never heard of a rink rat.) idolize.. Folks like Semi and Bofa Dee and Espi and Dare. lol. I actually KNEW them unlike a lot of those people. haha. Okay... Dare and I did NOT get along in any way... but still... we could bury the hatchet. haha. In each others backs... lol. What the hell was I talking about?
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fatmop
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Post by fatmop on Jan 30, 2007 13:26:47 GMT -8
Be nice to have something like that. All I had was the prison mastery device, and I don't think I ever used that thing once. As for the aikido defense move - Serene Calm or Iron Body? Iron Body is a good one for raising Resistance, I agree, but Serene Calm actually cancels hyper dodge and block (or it did when I used it last) and replaces them with (I think) a more all-round, lower average defense for each. Then you have to reactivate hyper dodge. Soooo not worth the IS.
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Post by Admin on Jan 30, 2007 13:39:08 GMT -8
I don't use serene calm until near the end of the fight. It actually does make quite a difference somtimes. Not always though. I'm not sure what the numbers are. Have to check that sometime. I'm real careful about IS management as well which I don't think a lot of people are. They have a gig and they use the same pattern of attacks all the time come hell or high water. This ability seems kinda useless, which is why I think a lot of people avoid Aikido, but it has been the difference a few times between me winning and losing. If I have lots of IS and it looks really bad I'll active both at the same time. I call it "Curl up in the fetal position and kick a lot." lol. I don't use Serene calm very often at all for various reasons. Usually when I'm losing bad. That's it. If I'm getting crushed out of the gate I'll use Iron body right away. Hope they waste a bunch of IS on failed specials.
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Post by Pylat on Jan 30, 2007 16:03:39 GMT -8
Supposedly Serene calm is like desperation, the lower your health the higher the bonus. I loved using Aikido cause the self buffs added another dimension to fighting, being able to buff yourself helped a lot. Especially when I used my Suplex/MA combo on the zerg, I'd activate Iron Body as soon as possible so my resistances were high whilst I pwned the unfortunate victim.
You can really tell the difference between noob PvPers and the experienced ones by the tactics they use. Noobs will keep spamming the same combo of attacks no matter what the situation is. This is why Maki Otoshi and Ki Burst (The Karate one that debuffs acc) are so devastating against most people, even with a -50 to acc they keep spamming attacks. Having Iron body makes all the difference for me, whenever people did that I'd go to block and activate Iron body. I'd regen the IS lost from using Iron body and also a lot of their attacks would miss. Suddenly they are low on IS and I have full IS and most of my health intact. I turned an obvious advantage for them into my advantage.
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Post by Admin on Jan 31, 2007 3:10:48 GMT -8
Serene calm, according to the icon description, gives 37 defence points across the board on all four defensive abilities at my level, plus something else I think, while Hyper Dodge gave 48. I think. It's most usefull in PvP obviously but helps sometimes in duels. I think Pylat is right as well. Something goes on behind the scenes that we can't see and isn't listed. Maybe. It's really hard to say and I haven't put much testing into it since I seem to do okay. I wolloped Laofu today with Aikido and he was duelist I believe. Pretty sure duelist. No.. he was Howitzer. That's right. It was Jac that was duelist. Did pretty good there too. Laofu then changed to Karate grandmaster and we had a couple EPIC duels. lol. My usual ballistic defence is 208 fully geared with what I usually roll with. I checked it tonight. However then I have a choice between being weak against viral or thrown. Or weaker in specific areas but across the board better averages. Funny... I seem to recall someone *cough Rarebit cough* saying something about being LESS dependent on clothing in CR2.0.... lol. Maki is a bit of an IS hog but yeah... great move if you get it through.
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Post by Fatmop not logged in on Jan 31, 2007 4:51:37 GMT -8
LaoFu? Pfft. Scrub.
I'm pretty sure Serene Calm overrides all Hypers and deactivates them. That means you're losing so many points of defense against your duel opponent when you activate it...
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